An Interview with Calvin Greenup

Conducted by David Neiwert

April 2, 1996

Note: For basic information on Calvin Greenup's plight, see "Patriot" Profile #1.

I. Arraignment: Hamilton County Courthouse

Greenup:

This [holding up the Bible], your honor, is the ultimate law book. When man deviates from this law book, he deviates from the precious Godhead, and when you do that, you lower yourself from the kind of decency where husbands can lay the foundations of what is lawful.

I’m going to continue to preach the Gospel of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He is going to have final say in all these matters and all these men.

We have to be accountable to the Lord. In that respect, I have never injured anyone, never done anything. I believe that everyone, including government officials, have to be accountable for their acts. I have seen the last several years where government is violating the constitution in so many aspects, and they’re violating them as institutions. Because the people of this country are sovereign under God -- because that’s the way the country was set up. We have a constitutional republic. We have receded from that so rapidly I fear this nation, and every land that I see, has fell from this book, has fell from decency on this planet.

Now, when I went to the law library, one of the most important things that I found out, some of the old time law books, said for your final approach, please refer to the Holy Scripture. When you refer to the Holy Scripture, justice sometimes will prevail. We don’t have a perfect society. I have never threatened to kill anyone per se. It’s not in my system. I have always said that everyone must be held accountable for their actions.

II. Press Conference Outside Courthouse

Greenup:

What the people of this country need to realize is that portions or most of the Constitution has been suspended. When you have a suspension of the documents that keeps public officials in position where government is held accountable for their actions -- and I don’t see that in America. If you heard me in the courtroom, and I meant it very adamantly, we have government officials violating the Constitution in such a manner that people are being damaged and hindered by certain acts.

I agree in laws. I have never said that this country could not do without laws. I’m a man of law. This [Bible] is the most precious law book that was ever given to mankind. And man does not want to follow this precious law -- not even the government of this country. Even though our forefathers drew up the Constitution from this book right here.

Let’s look at Jesus Christ himself. It was crooked government that arrested him. He didn’t violate the law -- they accused him of violating the law -- he come and fulfilled the law. He died on the cross so that we could have a chance for salvation. They hung him on the cross -- government hung him on the cross. We have the same people in government in America today that would do the same thing to Christ today -- they would hang him on the cross and stick a spear in his side, put a crown of thorns on his head. Yes, we have those kind of people in government today. This is what I fear for the United States right now -- if we don’t have redress of grievances in the courts, and get our hearsay in the courts, then there is no justice. If there is no redress of grievance, if people don’t have their pleas heard, and when you don’t get your pleas heard, we have a society in America that is dangerous.

I don’t agree with everything that goes on in the country as far as the Freemen, but the opposite of free man is slave -- and I don’t want to be a slave. I hope and contest that many of you people don’t want to be a slave to government, either. Government was instituted in America to be servants of the people. I’m one of the public. Waco, Texas -- has anyone suffered? Has anyone been punished for the wrongdoing by government in Waco, Texas? Randy Weaver, Ruby Ridge -- has any government official been punished for the wrongdoing of killing Vicki and Sammy Weaver?

Justin Smith: Cal, you tried to pass one of LeRoy Schweitzer’s checks here. Do you think his checks ought to be honored?

CG: Well, we have to get into the, the banking system, and go down there, and justice -- There’s a lot of things going on in America right now that’s fraud and injust. And it’s being performed by government agents and agencies. That’s what I’m saying that has to be turned around. I’m not saying anything LeRoy Schweitzer done was right or wrong. I’m not saying that anything Jerry Holland has done is right or wrong. We have tried to follow this book [Bible] to the letter. We have tried to follow the law that pertains to this book to the letter. We have never damaged anyone or damaged anyone’s property. I don’t ever want to be there.

No violence ever came of my actions. I am one of the few people in this community who done everything I could to keep somebody from getting shot. It was Cal Greenup who stood up, and said, ‘No folks, we’re not going to shoot.’

[Justifies packing a gun as part of historical tradition]

JS: You’ve given up now the right to bear those weapons.

CG: I had to do what I had to do, in this court system, the way it’s set up -- not agreeing that it’s right -- not agreeing that any government in any country has ever been one hundred percent right. I had to do what I had to do to continue to preach this book. And preach and teach people the wrongdoing of government officials and agents right now.

JS: So is that done with a gun -- in Darby, a year ago?

CG: I didn’t do anything with a gun, Justin.

JS: You armed yourself with one.

CG: I armed myself when I was eight years old. Does that mean I was doing anything wrong? I was born with a gun in my hand.

Reporter: If you felt threatened again, would you pick up arms again?

CG: Let’s put it this way: If the New World Order comes to this continent, which I fear is going to happen -- George Bush pushed it -- the New World Order, the New World Order, over and over again -- yes, when the New World Order comes, it’s probably going to be a time that people are going to have to take up arms to protect this country.

You’ll be one of those people.

You bet, if I’m still alive, I’m going to be one of those people, yes. I don’t believe in the New World Order. I believe in the country the way this was set up -- it’s a constitutional republic, where the people of this country have the right to say and do things according to the constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Reporter: Looking back over the past year, is there anything you would change?

Yes, I would change one drastic thing. I would never have hired an attorney and went into these courts.

What would you have done instead?

I would have done whatever I had to do to try and make people realize there’s no redress of grievance and there’s no justice in this country.

DN: So you regret hiring John?

I like John, I’ve appreciated John, and John and I have discussed the situation at great length. John knew his hands was tied to a certain extent, but John done what he could do under the circumstances.

When you take and destroy a man because of his trying to prove to people that there’s no justice, and try to prove to people that public officials that are violating the Constitution don’t get punished -- yes, I was punished for my political views.

In America, your life is what you’ve tried to do for your family, what you’ve tried to do for your country. There’s probably not very many people in this community that have done as much for the community as I have or my parents. My parents taught me to do good for your neighbors, and do things in the community. And I’ve done that.

George [Corn, Ravalli County prosecutor] mentioned the landfill. George has never admitted that Cal Greenup voluntarily submitted a piece of ground at no charge to the community so they’d have a place to put their garbage so they could get it away from the river. And because I refused to accept the response to close the people’s landfill, that’s what started the whole thing going.

The landfill was licensed in the Darby Refuse Disposal District -- that has never been credited, it’s never been broadcast, and yet they crammed that down my throat. I never owned the license to that landfill, ladies and gentlemen -- the county owned it. But I suffered dearly financially, exhausted from my family for that landfill.

Yeah, I done for my community and got punished for it. See anybody standing up for me today?

[Asked about white ribbons he and his family are wearing, with ‘Freeman’ written in magic marker on them]

That’s a show that I’m a Freeman. I believe in freedom in this country. The government doesn’t agree in freedom. They believe in control of the people.

[asked about game farm:]

I wasn’t running a game farm. OK, game farms, if you’re run by a corporate body, I believe that there is a requirement for a license. My issue was, and I wanted to go before the people and have on many occasions, to prove to them that it was not necessary to regulate elk in captivity with a license. I believe in health and disease control. I believe in hybridization. I don’t have any problems or quarrel with that, but it’s not necessary to have a license to do that. Now, for instance, if my elk had been diseased, you yourself could come and file a report against me that my animals are diseased and spreading the disease. I don’t have no problem with that.

I never said that. I never fought the state on that. As a matter of fact, I raised livestock -- my family’s been in the livestock business ever since I was a little kid. My elk were pets. They were no more different than any other kind of livestock. No, it’s not required to have a license.

III. Interview: Hamilton, Montana -- cafe

Greenup:

There are some pretty powerful people east of the Mississippi that I did talk to on several occasions. There for awhile, there was a period of time before last April that I was taking 80-100 calls a day. And they were coming from all over the -- the people of this country.

The so-called civil unrest in this country is not a local place. I mean, there is people all over this country starting to realize, hey the court system, the government’s screwed up, the court system’s screwed up.

I was raised right here where I’m living now, just a quarter-mile up the draw from that. I was raised by parents that believed in living by the sweat of their brow. My dad was a hard worker -- he started off herding sheep when he was 15 years old. He worked as a rancher. He’s the one that taught me how to raised animals and take care of animals and -- it’s our ancestry. I’m Scotch-Irish-English, there’s Wales in me -- so we are animal-husbanding type people.

And so ranching life was what I wanted. I went into the military. I grew up through the ranks in high school, and anything I ever got out of high school I had to work hard for, because nothing come easy for me. I had to work at it. For me to make the varsity of the football or basketball team, I had to work for it. I had to actually do something to earn my way on there.

[Played quarterback] I started my junior year in several games. Sometimes starting wasn’t the role for me. I was kind of a backup role, and I liked that better because I had a chance to focus on what was going on and what wasn’t working. And I could go in and on several occasions, matter of fact the coach, I had a lot respect for, that’s why he used me in the way he did, because I used to sit and concentrate on what was going on, and then when he sent me in, I usually got results.

When I was a freshman in high school I only weighed a hundred and one pounds. You had to weigh a hundred pounds to play football. And I was playing against guys that weighed 185, 190 pounds. And I was successful.

Joined the military right out of high school, the Navy. I served all over the Pacific. I was in the Philippines for awhile and then the ship that I was on hit basically every port in the Pacific. ‘60-’66.

When I left Montana to join the Navy, that was probably one of the worst cultural shocks that a young farm boy could ever go through. It was horrible, because when I got off the train in San Diego -- I had never been to any large cities in my life, and when I got off that train in San Diego, I was scared to death. I was petrified.

At that time, I said, ‘Man, I’m in the wrong place at the wrong time.’ But I was always one, when I vowed to do something, I was going to get it done. So I took the oath, I said I’m going to serve my time in the military, and I did so.

All the time I was in the Navy, it was always on my mind, even in the Philippines, I couldn’t wait to finish my tour of duty, so that I could get home and get back on the ranch, ‘cuz when I was a young boy, I wanted to raise elk. I wanted to raise elk in the worst way. So in my mind and in my heart, I never did really leave.

Shad: No, in fact, tell him what Kenny thought of it.

CG: My dad was madder than a hornet.

Shad: Sold the cows to buy the elk, see.

CG: And I bought five head of elk. And he says, ‘I hope you know what you’re doin’ son, but I wouldn’t give you ten cents for the whole bunch of ‘em.’ I told him, ‘Well, Dad, just one time, let me do this, let me do this one thing. If I fall on my face, so what? But then again I might do all right. So just give me a chance and don’t pick on it.’

I said, ‘If you just watch, within a month or six weeks, you won’t even know they’re the same elk.’ Well, I proved that. And then after I made steps to where I was, my dad seen that, he come to me, and big tears come down his cheeks, and he says, ‘Well, I fulfilled my job. I trained one boy to understand and respect and do right by animals.’ And he says, ‘There probably isn’t no one in this world that can handle elk like Calvin Greenup.’ That was a compliment from my dad.

I was setting this all up from the time I was eight or ten years old. I was playing with the wild ones. I went into the Navy in 1960, I cam back, I married her in ‘64 -- I also am a family man, I believe in family, I believe in continuing my bloodline by having my own family and raising them up.

I met her, she’s from San Diego, but I didn’t meet her until I come home from leave in Darby. Her folks come up in ‘62 and bought a restaurant there in Darby, and that’s where I met her. She told people that she had a lot of respect for me, even though I was a sailor, that I treated her more like a gentleman than any of the other guys she ever went with.

Lynda: [Move from California] I was the only girl -- three boys and a girl. And I hated it. I felt pretty much behind, and everything, and I couldn’t believe it.

We came here on vacation a couple of years before that.

[Married in May of ‘64.]

CG: And I knew that I had to establish something, because now I’ve got a wife, and we’ve planned on having a child, but we had our first child in June of ‘65. So I knew that working on the ranch, and the lumber mills, was not going to get me in the position to do what I wanted to do in my mind. So I took a correspondence course to work for the airlines. And I left the valley then in August of 1965, and I took on the job of working for Ozark Airlines for the next fourteen and a half years all over the Midwest. I was Kirksdale, Missouri; I was in Waterloo, Iowa; I was in St. Louis; I was in Denver, Colorado; Sioux Falls, South Dakota; Sioux City, Iowa.

We was in the process of -- if Ozark -- they had already granted a flight run to Reno, Nevada, and I told her, if they get that run and we can go to Reno, Nevada, I’m gonna stick it out a little longer. Well, finances and everything and the crunch, governmental regulations started hindering the airlines in such a way that I could it was going down the tubes fast. I just told her, well, I’m gonna make my move and go back to Montana, because I understand it.

So in ‘78, I was still working for the airlines in Denver, and that was the year I packed up my family and went back to Darby. We started building our home in July of ‘79. I quit Ozark airlines in November of ‘79, and then she’s been thinking and messing ever since. Because, in my mind, I said, I want to get started on raisin’ elk. And I don’t know how I’m going to do it. I had three kids, see. And I knew that I had the responsibility to get them educated and get them on their way at the same time.

But through the ‘80s, there was two or three occasions where I had a chance to buy elk. And when I went to buy ‘em, they sold ‘em out from under me. So my last chance -- I wasn’t going to give up. If this didn’t work -- in ‘88, calf prices was high, so I sold all the cows I had, and I don’t recall how many there was, and I said, I’m going to get however many elk I can and get started. So in July of ‘88, I bought five elk.

We didn’t transfer them yet, they were just calves. They were only a little over a month old. So I told the guy, I can give you the money for them now. He said no, I don’t do business that way. So July passed, August passed, September passed, and October -- and I told her, I said, well, I better run down, because it’s time to wean them now, and I want to see if they’re still my elk. So I went down, and he said, ‘Oh yeah, they’re yours. We haven’t gotten ‘em vaccinated and ready for shipment yet.’ I said, well, you want me to give you part of it? And he says, ‘No, when you come to pick them up, you pay me all of it.’

Heh. Thanksgiving came. We went down and seen ‘em. Christmas came. We went down again, the same old song and dance. January, the same old song and dance. And I told her, ‘We’re not going to get those elk.’ So February passed, then March, I just give it up, I just figured, ‘Well it’s not gonna happen.’

The last day of March, that night, he called me on the phone, and he said, ‘If you’ll be here in the morning, we’re gonna vaccinate and test these animals and they’ll be ready to ship. So if you’re here with your trailer, we’ll load ‘em up for you and you can take ‘em home.’

So April Fools Day of 1989, I was over there early that morning. Her and the boys were tied up, they couldn’t go with me, so my mom and dad went with me -- and Dad, he was against it, he didn’t like it. And I said, ‘Well, I just need somebody to go with me, in case of I break down, somebody won’t let ‘em go.’ And so he went.

And they were skinny, they were peeled up, they were bad-looking animals. So we got them down and got them loaded up. They did look bad to me, but I knew what I could do with them. That wasn’t worrying me. I knew my bloodlines, I had a good bloodline.

In three weeks, I had one of them eating out my hand, and in a month, I had all of them coming over smelling me. In six weeks, I had them all eating out of my hand. And so, then I started building up, and one thing led to the other. I said I want to build up a bloodline as I recall seeing in them when I was kid. So I started on those lines, and then --

In 1994, I had a four-year-old bull that was seven-by-eight, had a huge rack on him. And I knew that I was well under way to do what it was that I wanted to do. And people were coming by and taking pictures of them from all over the country. I took them to the fair down there.

I had one little female that was halter-broke. I could lead her into the brakes, and I could milk her. And that’s what I wanted to do.

Instead, I got into this trouble with the government and the fights. I was in the process of fighting with the government when I lost my first elk. I knew then that the government is, as far as I’m concerned, a crooked bunch of shysters. And every time I took a step, there was more proof to that effect.

Did you grow up going to church?

No. Matter of fact, I hated church. I hated Bible. I hated anything to do with churches or anything, because most of the people I seen going to church were hypocritical, they were a lyin’ bunch of jackasses, and I didn’t like ‘em. But then again, what got me on to it, I guess, was we was livin’ in Denver at the time. And we had two of our boys were in the public school system there, the Jefferson County Public School system, which is supposed to be one of the best in the nation. When she went down and found out -- my oldest son, they were not teaching him anything. They weren’t teaching him math, reading, writing, arithmetic, any of that kind of stuff. And so she got mad, and then I checked into it a little, then I got mad. And I realized what they was.

So we pulled our kids out. And the government says, you can’t pull your kids out -- we’ll come and take them away from you. And I said, ‘You do that. You try and come to take my kids away from me.’ And that’s when I first threatened the government, to leave my kids alone. They belong to me. I’ll teach my boys. You people are not teaching them anything.

So our next-door neighbor there knew that I was in a battle with the government over my boys. And he says, ‘Let me do this. Are you interested in having a place to put your kids in school?’ And I said, ‘Well, of course. I believe in school.’ He said, ‘Well, we have a church school.’ And I said, ‘A church school.’ He says, ‘But they’re a traditional school that believes in -- and he went down the line -- reading, writing, ‘rithmetic, the Bible, and all this other stuff.

I thought, ‘Well, they got to get an education, so they can throw the other stuff over their shoulder.’ So I went down and checked with that preachers, and he said, ‘I know you’re having trouble with the government come threatening to come take your kids and everything.’ He said, ‘Don’t talk to them no more. Let me handle it. I’ll handle it. And I’ll take care of your kids. You give me a chance to teach your boys.’

And I said, ‘What’s this gonna cost me?’ And he said, ‘I am not gonna charge you nothin’ Mister Greenup.’ He says, ‘You’re concerned about your kids and your education, so am I. And as a preacher of the Gospel,’ he says, ‘I got a responsibility to help you with your children.’

So anyway, we put ‘em in the school down there. And so my neighbor invited me to go to church, and I got to where I hated that preacher, because he’d stand up in the pulpit and pointed his finger at me and this and that and the other, and tell me I was going to hell if I didn’t receive Christ as my savior and all this other stuff. And I thought, well, puke on you.

And in them days, I was fixin’ to poke his lights out. And then one day, he give an invitation after the message, and everything -- see I thought him and my wife were talking to each other, and I thought she was telling him my background, and he was hammerin’ on me too stinking much. And so that particular day, I thought, well, you better not reach out and shake my hand today buddy, because I’m going to poke you in the gut. And so on the way out the door, I was trying to figure out a way where I didn’t have to go by him.

When I got to the door there, he was standing there, he reached out and he says, ‘Is there something you want to talk to me about, Mr. Greenup?’ And I says, ‘Yeah. I’m going to hell, and I don’t know what to do about it.’ And he says, ‘You want to come to the side room and talk to me about it?’ And I said, ‘Yeah, let’s go.’

So the church had big cop. He was six-foot, I don’t know, 6-5, 6-6, weighed 250 pounds. Huge man. And he says, ‘Merv, I want you to clean this church out, I want you to clear it out. I want nobody here, and if we’re here for two weeks, I don’t want to be disturbed. I don’t want noise, I don’t want nobody. Get everybody away from this church building.’ And I thought, ‘What in the world am I in for?’

So he went in there and he sit down and he said, ‘Just a minute,’ and he went back over to Merv, ‘You understand what I’m sayin’? I don’t want nobody in this church building while I’m in here with this man.’

So we went back over there, and he went over the Scriptures with me, and showed me where I was lost and undone without Christ, and I was hellbound if I didn’t receive Christ as my savior. And so I received Christ as my savior that day, and I’ve been saved ever since.

I drank a little bit then. I was a hard man then. My language was way beyond reproach during them days. I was not sweet to my wife in them days. I was very rough, very crude man when I was raising my boys -- although I wasn’t mean to them, I was rough, I was a rough character.

And I guess through my salvation through Jesus Christ, I mellowed up as man, learned to love my wife, and learned to love my boys much more than I did before that. And so I owe a lot to Christ. But I also knew that I had relatives that supposedly knew Christ before I did, but they never did sit down and talk to me about it.

And I thought, Well, if I ever know Christ, I’m not going to keep it in. I’m going to talk about it.’ And I’ve been talking about it ever since, and I won’t quit. I don’t care where I am at, I talk about it. Just like I did in court this morning. Those people don’t scare me one stinkin’ bit.

When the did the whole landfill thing start?

Well, my dad owned the landfill, and he used my property for the landfill, and that was started in ‘72. Well, I came back here in ‘78 and ‘79, I just voluntarily helped my dad with the ranch and helped wherever I could fill in, because I love my dad and mom.

I knew something serious was happening. I could see the buildup, because I started reading the paperwork in ‘86. And I never even discussed it with her. I was reading the stuff that Dad was getting in the mail from the health folks, the environmental stuff, and he was starting to get upset, and they was putting the pressure on him to do certain things, and I said, ‘Well, Dad, I don’t know what we’re going to do about it. They have the right to pass these regulations on these landfills.’

But I said, ‘One of the things of this business is, you are not responsible for people’s garbage.’ And he says, ‘No, and I sure blankety-blank ain’t, and this and that the other.’ Then in ‘88, I told Dad -- actually, it was ‘87, I said, ‘Dad, run the landfill. Do anything you want to with it, but sign everything over in my name.’ I said, ‘They’re after your ranch, Dad, and they’re going to get it.’ He said, ‘How in the hell they going to get my ranch?’ And I laid it down to him on how they was going to take his ranch. I said, ‘Dad, understand what I’m telling you, I’m your son, and I’ve looked at this stuff now for two years. They’re after your ranch. And they’re going to get it.’

So then, when things started foreclosing then, in ‘87, and then late ‘87, November, December, he says, ‘Son, you’re right. I think you’re right. They’re after your ranch.’ And I said, ‘That’s exactly what they’re after. It’s not a matter of right and wrong, Dad, they’re going to try and hang you with that landfill.’

So then in January he set down with me and the committee, the landfill committee and the county commissioners, and he said, ‘I want to sign this over to Calvin.’ He says, ‘You go ahead and keep the profits,’ and he said, ‘I don’t need it anymore. You help your butt off for me and help me with this, just take the landfill and make the best of it you can, finish up the contract and do whatever you gotta do.’ So in February of ‘88 he signed it all over to me.

And it wasn’t any moment too soon, because by July or August of ‘88, they were already coming down with such stringent rules and regulations for the landfill, you wouldn’t believe. Plastic liners, test holes, the tests are $2500 a year for a hole, and these kinds of flamboyant figures and all this crap.

He subcontracted under the county. The county is the one that the license was issued to -- the Darby Refuse Disposal District. So the landfill was put out for bid by the county. And Dad was the successful bidder. And he bid so much per household per year, just to maintain the landfill on a day-to-day basis, maintain the roads and et cetera. So yes, he was subcontractor under the county. And he didn’t get rich, because he never would charge the people what he really needed to to make a profit. But that’s my dad, and that’s the way he operated.

What materials were you studying?

The rules and regulations they were changing and coming after the landfill owners with. And I could read the handwriting on the wall, that they were -- whoever was part of a landfill was in for big trouble. It was just in the writing.

Who was trying to take your dad’s ranch? The county?

Well, they didn’t in their minds in the beginning, but I also knew that these officials -- it was happening to other people that was running landfills. So I knew from 1980 that people were losing their ranches, they was losing their farms, they was losing huge -- hundreds of thousands of dollars over landfills.

But the only thing I knew that dad and I had in our favor, was the license was in the name of the county. These other people that lost their places, the license was in their personal names. And they screwed up, and I knew it. And in my mind, see, I still thought that the government would not tread in an area where they knew they couldn’t win. But they did.

When they came to me, I thought, well, they got us -- so far.

When they come and told me, and I says, ‘Well, now, who do you expect to come up with the funds to do all this stuff that you want done with the landfill and the closures and all this?’ And they said, ‘You.’

It was $150,000, is what the estimate was, just for the contractor to move the dirt that was necessary to move. That wasn’t the engineer’s costs or anything, which could have been $50,000-plus. So anyway, I told ‘em, ‘Go ahead, but pack a lunch, because you’re going to be awhile if you come to get my property.’

Well, when they said that, my father-in-law says, ‘They mean that, and they’re going to get it.’ And my dad says, ‘Yeah, they’re after you.’ And I said, ‘Yeah, they’re going to try to take everything I got.’

Which is fine. They’re gonna be sorry someday, and I’m going to live to see the day that they’re sorry for what they done to me. I’ll be honest with you, at this point in time, I don’t know where our next buck is going to come from. We just took the last few pennies we had yesterday and went and got groceries, and that’s it. We’re done.

Have you considered making the same offer Weaver did -- to negotiate the end of the standoff in Jordan?

No.

You know those guys, don’t you?

Yeah. I do.

Would you consider them friends?

Ah, that’s a pretty loose term.

Well, let’s put it this way: Would they consider you a friend?

I don’t think so. Because we don’t see eye to eye on the Scriptures. See, if you were a black man, sitting here, I would sit here and talk to you just like it doesn’t make any difference to me. They wouldn’t.

I don’t believe that way. I believe the Bible is very plain -- it said, ‘Whosoever shall come -- whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’ It doesn’t say anything about color. It says whosoever. So if I am a whosoever, so is a black man.

By the way, when I was in St. Louis, I worked with some real nice black people. Clean, nice black people. I don’t have no problems with the black folks. I don’t want to live with any of them -- I don’t think that’s wrong. But I don’t have no problem working with them, dealing with them, I’ll go to church with them. I can worship the Lord with them. I worked with Jews in Sioux City, Iowa, at an Iowa beef processing company. There’s some Jews up there that I learned to love dearly. They’re good people. Some of my own blood relations -- I can’t stand ‘em. They’re the worst, stinking people on the face of this earth in some aspects.

I’m a pretty broad-minded person. And the thing of it is, with my relatives, I flat tell them, I don’t pull no punches with them. If they’re a jackass, I believe so. Look up Job, Chapter 11, Verse 12.

People in my own family, they wouldn’t have knowed how to take a stand like this against a wrongful bunch of government officials. I’m one -- our forefathers set up probably the most perfect government man can set up. And Thomas Jefferson says, we’re getting away, so we don’t do certain things, restrict certain areas, such as ...

[Interruption]

‘89 is about when it started getting pretty sticky. And then in ‘90. When they told me I had to close the landfill in ‘90, the contracts were done in September and October. And then they said that the county was not going to collect any more funds for the operator, and this and that. But they told to me I had to close it -- by the regulations, I had to close it. And I says, ‘I don’t own the license. You people own the license.’ The attorney general’s office filed papers against me because I refused.

The county got in, but it was the attorney general’s office that filed it. And of course, the county took the side of the attorney general. And that’s when I told George Corn, I said ‘You are a liar.’

[Tape break]

The federal government has been trying to take the authority away from the states. In other words, they shoved the Federal Reserve down their throats in 1917, then they really shoved it down their throats in 1933. And that when -- when you start operating -- my common sense says, if you don’t have some kind of substance to back up your paper, you’ve got a weak country. And that’s what’s happened.

And that was before I was born. Even still, the states -- every state in this union, there are fifty of ‘em, and every one of them have not changed their constitution. Still, gold and silver is the only form of exchange in the states.

Well, Joe Holland has got a paralegal service in Booneville, Indiana, and I met him in the summer of ‘93. And he was putting to work stuff that I had already studied and got. He says, ‘I’m willing to help you.’ So he helped me with my paperwork, and that’s when we started putting it out about the Federal Reserve and the War Powers Act, and we started exposing all that stuff. And the more I put in there, the madder these people over here at this courthouse got, because they knew that I was onto something and they didn’t want me to expose it.

You signed some documents with LeRoy and Rodney once. Have you been over there?

Yes, we went over there and spent nine days over there.

When was that?

February of ‘95.

You had not met them before?

No. I had had a couple of conversations over the phone with them. And then when we went over there -- because in all the stuff at the court library -- the law library and et cetera -- there was stuff that kept popping out: the common law. Even in the Montana Code annotated, common law pops out in there. The very first time, the very first page, the common law is there. And yet these people say the common law is archaic, it’s this and that and the other. Even John don’t agree with me on the common law.

OK, so the common law is not archaic. It’s the only just kind of law. Now the statutes, the way it’s set up, the way the government was set up, as a republic, the legislators can pass legislating, and legislative laws are binding for corporations. But when it comes to a private individual, I’m sovereign under God. I am over government. Our forefathers established this government. OK, when the Constitution was written, the Constitution provided for three branches of government, and if anybody was voted into office, they became what? Public servants. If I am the public, and they are public servants, what does that make me? That makes me master.

OK, but mankind, in his infinite stupidity, doesn’t like to be a servant. George Corn hates the thought of being a servant. He wants to be a tyrant. He wants to be a boss. He wants to own people. He wants to rule. Now, I told George Corn specifically once -- I said if you don’t want to be a public servant, then resign and get out! Stop being an ass about it! Just let somebody else do it!

But anyway, the way it was set up as a republic, the people are the sovereigns, they are the master. And for a statute to apply to me as a sovereign, I have to be involved in one of two things: I have to have either damaged somebody because of my activity, or I have to have some kind of a contract which made me a corporation. Then the statute applies to me.

OK, it used to be, when you walked into court, like if they’d have marched Cal Greenup over there before the judge, the very first thing the judge is supposed to ask -- and that’s the way it was, years ago -- the judge would say, ‘Where’s the damaged party.’ The prosecutor has to produce a damaged party. If they’re, ‘Well, your honor, there’s no damaged party’ -- `Well then, where’s the contract?’ ‘Well, judge, there’s no contract.’ ‘This case is dismissed.’ And that happened many a time back in the early 1800s. But that didn’t happen with Cal Greenup.

You’ve declared yourself a sovereign citizen, right?

Yes.

Do you understand the concerns of people of color when you start talking about rescinding the 14th Amendment?

I understand their concern about racism. And wherever you’ve got a mixed color of people, there’s racism. Yet -- and people need to be protected, OK? You and I need to be protected from the blacks as well as the blacks need to be protected from us, as far as racism. That’s fact, that’s fact. And that’s government was instituted to do, just that. And I don’t have no problems or qualms or quarrels with that.

I tell you right now, I think there are black people all over this country that’s on my side. ‘Cause they know where I stand. Those blacks that I worked with, they know what kind of guy I am. Because I was very open with them -- that was before I was saved. I never had no racist problem even then.

If a black man stepped on my toes wrongfully, I told him, ‘You back up, back up you stinkin’ nigger.’ Oh, man, I was right at him. And one of them come to me, and he says, ‘Listen, white honky,’ and I said, ‘Well, let’s get it on.’ I said, ‘We either get along, or we’re gonna it get it on.’ And we got along. That guy had a lot of respect for me.

As a matter of fact, I wasn’t at work one day, and he said, ‘You know, the only white man I know of that’s been honest in his stand is Cal Greenup. And right now, if I need him to help me on anything, he’d come and help me.’ And he was right. As long as he was right, I would support him.

You see, I hate abortions. I hate government-controlled abortions.

The 14th Amendment, as far as I’m concerned, the way it’s written, it’s gotta be rewritten or something. But it actually hinders the black people. And I’m against it for that reason.

For instance, any black man that was born on this continent, born in this nation, and lived off on a ranch or whatever similar to the way I did, and grew up on this country, and served his country, he has every much right as I do. Every much. Those rights are not given to him by the government. They’re given to him by God.

But the Skurdals and Schweitzers don’t see it that way. Under their system of common law, only white Christian males need apply. I don’t think their ideas are likely to solve the problem.

No, it won’t. It won’t. It’d just cause another major war, is all that is.

And I feel sorry for LeRoy and Rod for their belief on that, because the Bible does not condone that. White supremacy is not in the Bible. As a matter of fact, the Jews are God’s chosen people, and they hate the Jews. They’re in dangerous waters.

I’m not going to worry about it a lot. And I’m not going to worry a whole lot about it, other than I don’t agree with them, no more than I agree with what the Jews are doing in Israel right now. I don’t agree with some of the blacks, and what they’re doing in Africa right now. Let ‘em fight it out. I don’t like what some of the blacks are doing in this country right now. But then I don’t like what some the whites are doing.

Cal, were you ever exposed to the John Birch Society when you were growing up?

That was going in this valley when I was in school. Yes. My sixth-grade teacher, as a matter of fact, was a John Bircher. And she’s the one that started me on the path of teaching me the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. John Birchers were strong then. Underground, but strong.

And that is what has kind of informed you all your life?

You bet. That’s always been in the back of my mind. Yep.

So? when the old Soviet Union collapsed, is that when you started thinking about the New World Order

Yep. I could see that happening -- it wasn’t called New World Order when I first started seeing it. When I first started seeing it, I called it One World Government. I guess I got my first hint of it when John F. Kennedy was shot in November of 63. That’s when I first started really realizing -- before John F. Kennedy got shot, see, I was a radio man in the Navy, and I could see where the government was lying to the American people, and I couldn’t figure out why. It took me a little while to put together. And after John F. Kennedy was shot, then I started piecing it together.

The people that the One World Government is about is the elite, the money people of the world. The Gettys, the Rothschilds, the Bilderburgers, all of them. They’re the ones that’s causing the mess. And our government -- when you get yourself where you’re bankrupt, and this nation was bankrupt in 1917, the first time it was made in statements, then it was again stated in 1930-something and then again in 1970 -- I don’t remember the dates, I have them at home. And then in 1994, what’s-his-name in Congress, I can’t remember his name right now, said that we’re one of the biggest bankrupt nations in the world, and he disclosed that in the Congressional Record.

So when you’ve got a bankrupt country, when all you’ve got before you is, you’re collecting a base from the people, somehow or another to entrap the people to make them believe they’re free, and yet make them slaves, so you can get their property, because that’s all you’ve got left. You’re bankrupt. So you have to take it away from people, because the government don’t own anything. The government was not instituted to make money.

So they went to bed with the Federal Reserve System, which they did. The Federal Reserve System, I think it was Rothberger himself said: ‘I don’t care what the country’s laws are; if I can control their currency, I can control the nation.’ That’s happened to America.

They used the banking system, and then they used the IRS as a crooked, so-called tax-collect agency, to keep the Federal Reserve people satisfied until the government gets our guns away from us, so they can move in and take over the country. And then it’s all over.

Let’s go back to the landfill. Shortly after your fight with the county over that is when your trouble started with the elk farm, right?

Yeah. And the reason I done that -- and looking back, I wish at some point I should have taken some of my favorite animals and give them to another rancher to take care of until all this blew over. But I didn’t. That’s all hindsight.

But my point was, I didn’t own the license on the landfill, I didn’t really need a license for my private pets and my private livestock. So I didn’t take one. They forced me to take one, and then I changed the papers, and didn’t. I knocked off ‘game farm,’ and put in there, ‘non-traditional livestock.’ It sent the form in that way, and they issued the license that way.

So I was on the right road, and they knew what I was up to. Matter of fact, one Fish and Game guy says, ‘You know too much of the law, and we’ve got to get rid of him. We’ve gotta destroy him.’ That was from a Fish and Game guy in Helena. It was at a meeting over there, and I just happened to overhear the conversation on a break. And he says, ‘He knows too much of the law, and he’s gotta be destroyed.’

This was a $25 permit you were fighting over.

Yup. But it’s not the $25. It’s not the permit. It’s all the rules, regulations underneath that permit that make you a slave to Fish and Game, where they own me and my animals. No government has the right to take away your rights, turn them into a privilege and charge you for them.

Don’t you have any concern that your elk might spread brucellosis or other similar diseases?

But they’re not concerned about brucellosis. You know why they’re not concerned about it? The deer, elk and buffalo at Yellowstone Park have had it for twenty-five years. Has anybody ever done anything about it? No. They’re not concerned about it.

It has spread. To cattle. Oh you bet. They want to keep that under your hat. But the buffalo have got out and give it to livestock. The elk have got out and spread to other herds adjacent to Yellowstone Park. It has got into the cattle. The only thing is, cattle are well-vaccinated, and they ward it off. But sooner or later it can’t be warded off with vaccination. Because it can become so strong and so powerful, if it doesn’t get cut back now, it will literally destroy the livestock in Montana.

In other words, you feel the concerns that made them want to license your elk were mostly bogus?

Yes. I won’t say they’re bogus concerns, the concerns are there. But they’re undocumented in fact. The disease -- the brucellosis and TB -- that disease, it has potential for anybody that’s raising livestock anywhere in this country, anywhere in the world. But the people don’t know that.

The thing is, that same disease, TB, is spreading to people right now. There’s TB all over the country.

What happened after this? You have a run-in with law enforcement?

Scott had a run-in with them. My boys watched me through this whole thing and they could see where the just isn’t justice in the court. I mean, which way do you turn?

So they knew that they were after their dad, because they said so. They said, ‘We’re gonna come after you and get anything and everything you got.’ And so when the government agents and agencies make those kinds of statements, you just constantly look over your shoulder, and say, ‘Well, how are they gonna come after me? When are they gonna come after me?’

So, if they’d have approached Scott in any way other than what they did, the outcome wouldn’t have been the same. But they want at him -- well they attacked him. They had a whole bunch of cars, and they had cops surrounding him. He was down here buying materials -- he was helping work on houses and stuff. That’s when he started heading home, he saw the cop pull in behind him, and he thought, ‘Oh boy, what’s gonna happen next?’ Another one pulled in, they turned the lights on. then he knew -- in the back of his mind, he said, ‘Oh, boy, they’re after my dad, and now they’re after me for whatever reason.’

So when he pulled over in front of his house, Sterling Moss, we’d known him for quite awhile, and I thought he was fairly honest, but then he started -- `That pickup’s ours, now.’ And right away, my son says, ‘No it’s not.’ Then one thing went to another, and instead of Sterling saying, ‘We’re confiscating the truck,’ he didn’t say anything about that until after the handcuffs were on. So that was another piece of stupidity on the police’s part.

Their claim was that he was assaulting an officer or something, and he was protecting himself. They were the ones that made the assault. They surrounded him, and he ended up on the ground. They accused him of being on drugs, because he was so soft.

It just killed my wife and I -- and then to stand up in court and say he was -- they entered that he was on drugs, and a bunch of crap.

Well, then, one man that had been involved in this, he seen what was happening to me on the landfill, and that was Al Hamilton. And he jumped on my side, and he says, ‘Those dirty rotten bums,’ he says, ‘I’m on your side. If they want to get a war on, let’s get it on. I’m gonna support you.’

And when they found out he was supporting me and standing beside me and voicing his opinions on what happened with the landfill at public meetings and stuff like this, well, right away, he became the enemy. And then there’s a whole bunch of stuff happened. There was so much stuff happened there --

Larry Rose, the city cop of Darby, they had a warrant out for my arrest, and he wanted to put a feather in his hat. And he made the statement to some people that, ‘If I have to, I’ll kill him.’ You know, that kind of shooting your mouth off. The thing of it is, I used to go to church with that idiot. But I had a little problem with his salvation, always did. Now I know, I know what he is. He’s a demon possessed, Satanic liar. He can’t tell the truth. His wife can’t tell the truth and his daughters can’t tell the truth. He’s a perpetual, pathological liar. In the Bible, it talks about what God’s gonna do with liars. Especially when you lie and damage the cross. He is in trouble. He is in deep trouble.

So then there was people talking about drivers’ license, registration on cars -- and there is a lot more to this than meets the eye, and I don’t know how on a short tape we can explain all this.

We had that helicopter incident Feb. 5, 1995, where a black helicopter -- well, I had reports of other people who had black helicopters come over and harass them. Yes, George was right in court this morning -- I was going to shoot that sucker out of the sky. I mean, it’s unmarked, it’s an attack helicopter -- I’ve seen a lot of them over off the coast of Vietnam. Yes, I was planning on shooting the sucker.

Number one, he’s not supposed to be below five hundred feet over my property. If he’s below two hundred feet, which he was, then he’s up to no good, and I’m going to shoot the bastard down. That’s what he is, a bastard, because anybody who doesn’t know God the Father is a bastard. And that’s what those kind of people are.

So we found out that that same helicopter was part of the same bunch that was over Randy Weaver’s place, and so we knew then that they were up to no good. As I’m sitting here right now, I’m the first American that has made the statement that I would shoot the next one that comes over my house, I’ll shoot him down. I know where to hit ‘em. I could’ve got him down. And that helicopter has never come back. And I’m the only American that they didn’t at least come back the second time that I know of.

I know what they say. I know exactly what they say. I also knew what they said when we went into Vietnam, too. I also know what they said when they murdered John F. Kennedy. I also know what they said at Randy Weaver’s trial. I also know what Janet Reno said about Waco, Texas, too, that murdering scumbucket.

They lie. They’re not going to tell the truth about it. That helicopter was there for the sole purpose of to get a computer readout on the approach to Cal Greenup’s house so they could destroy me and my family. There’s no question about it. And until they prove me otherwise, that’s the way it is.

See, when I called the National Guard in Boise, Idaho, the same unit that helicopter come out of, when that -- he said, ‘Well, our officers said they maintained above five hundred feet.’ I said, ‘Tell your officers and those pilots they are dirty rotten liars, because over a hundred people seen them in this valley and had them under two hundred feet on any given time. So you tell your officers they’re liars.’

[Marc and Cheryl Andra] I didn’t harbor them. They came down and I fed them a meal a time or two, but they didn’t stay at our place. They stayed at their own place down by the river there at Darby.

I don’t remember when they moved into that apartment down by the river, sometime around Christmas or January of ‘95. So they were living in their own place down by the river. The police knew they was there. They was touring their house and keepin’ them under surveillance. George Corn knows that. They got the police reports, they know that I wasn’t harboring them people.

Lynda: They knew that they were living there.

CG: Well, anyway, Marc and Cheryl -- the IRS, with the help of Jay Printz, used a bogus, a phony warrant, not a proper warrant to raid their house.

[Tape break]

I have nothing to hide. One of the things -- I done everything I could so somebody wouldn’t get hurt. I was successful. Even though in court this morning, Corn got the credit, Jay Printz and his crew got the credit, and I got no credit. And Langton got credit. But the one that was the most central in the whole thing, that stopped a lot of it, it right here. Which is fine.

[Visitor drops by, adds two cents’ worth. Inaudible.]

See, him and his wife, through this whole ordeal, they was out here, and they couldn’t believe that I had said to the news report, and to the reporters, and they come out in the newspaper, and he thought he missed the interview somewhere. I said, that’s the way the newspeople do it. I said, they will not -- they have to use key words to taint this thing because they’re owned by the government. The mainstream media is owned by the government.

[Andras] They lost their baby over that raid, by the way. We used to have -- I still think we got a copy of that warrant. It’s a bogus warrant. Jay Printz knew it was bogus, and yet he went in and helped the IRS raid their home. The sheriff in this county is supposed to protect those people. But he didn’t do it. As far as I’m concerned, he’s another one of those government agents that’s not been made accountable for their wrongdoing.

OK, when the Andras tried to report that crime, George Corn refused, Jeff Langton refused it -- everywhere they went to report that crime and file those paperwork, they weren’t allowed to file them. So they took the next step -- they said, ‘Well, we can’t file a complaint in court, then we have to put a lien on some people’s properties.’ So they put a lien on the IRS agents’ property. That’s when all hell broke loose and they become federal fugitives.

So they came up to our place. They knew then that I was the center of attraction right now because I wasn’t about to back off with these people. And I knew that their agenda was, after what happened to Randy Weaver and Waco, Texas, Gordon Kahl, I knew that their agenda was to kill me. And they would justify it the best way they could. All I was trying to do was cover my butt so they’d have hard time justifying it.

But what really fouled up the government, peed on their parade, was when I started getting on the independent news media, radio talk shows, television, ‘48 Hours’ -- even though I didn’t agree with the mainstream media, but by having the exposure that I had on there, what little I got, kept the government from moving and killing me. No question about it.

Then again, I owe a lot of that to Joe Holland, because he got me on radio talk shows that I would have never got on if it had not been for him. As a brother in the Lord, and I love you dearly, expose them. Get it on. They may not do everything exactly the way you want it to come out, but leastwise you’re on there. And that will keep them from killing you. One thing I don’t want to see is them killing you, because you got a lot of knowledge, you got a lot of guts.’ He says, ‘The two together will help expose crooked government.’ Which I do.

That’s why Corn hates me so bad over here, because I’ve caught in so many lies, and put him in a position -- Langton doesn’t like me because I’ve exposed him too.

The Andras came up a time or two. We had a cookout up there, and they came up and we visited. We knew Marc and Cheryl for a few years. And I knew that he got a bad deal on that raid. See there, I don’t agree with everything Marc -- his lifestyle and everything up to that point. But I’m not against him for what happened to him on that raid.

So what happened April 2?

Well, Marc and Cheryl loaned my oldest son and wife a car. That was after his tiff with the cops. And they drove that car for, oh, a month or better. And it just so happened that the morning prior to April 2 -- it was week before, wasn’t it? I don’t remember -- anyway, this particular car that was owned by Marc and Cheryl Andra -- which actually wasn’t even owned by them, it was owned by a trust company -- OK, Karen Hamilton and Lynn Miller, which is Al Hamilton’s wife and daughter, were in that car coming from Darby, to here to Hamilton to give it to my daughter-in-law.

OK, Larry Rose knows us by face. He knows Karen Hamilton by face, he knows Lynn Miller by face. He reported on the radio that the car was on its way to Hamilton. Well, south of Hamilton here, the police turned around and put the lights on ‘em. Well, they didn’t think they were doing anything wrong. They weren’t even sure why they was putting the lights on. So they were going slow and they pulled in down here at the stockyard, just south of town out here. And there was eight or ten, pulled their guns out, pulled the hammers, pointed their guns at them, told them to get out, you’re under arrest.

The IRS identified them. Now, if you’ve seen Cheryl Andra, she don’t weigh a hundred pounds wringin’ wet. Little, tiny, short, sawed-off little girl. Now you got Lynn Miller, who is probably 5-6, 5-7, weighs 140 pounds, big woman; Karen Hamilton’s a little taller than and weighs probably 125 pounds, and the IRS didn’t have a picture, didn’t have nothing on them to identify Cheryl Andra. Identified Lynn Miller as Cheryl Andra. Now, there was a false identity. Then there was a false arrest because of the false identity. And those two women was locked in jail. That’s what really started some of the turmoil.

I had a warrant for my arrest -- looked the undersheriff in the face, and deputies, and said, ‘You dirty rotten lyin’ scumbuckets,’ I said. ‘The people you should be arrestin’ right now are those IRS agents down there at that motel room, and you ain’t doin’ it. And you ain’t going to do it. Because you ain’t got the guts.’

But I said, ‘You’re holding two women here illegally.’ And I went through a scenario. And I just lit on them for thirty minutes. I sit right there and told them what they was. And Al Hamilton was with me. So then we knew then that the government agents in this valley were corrupt, they were doing everything they could push you into a -- it was obvious they were trying to push us into a confrontation. No doubt about it. So they could bring in troops, or whatever. I don’t know what their scenario was, it don’t matter. But it was obvious to me they were pushing the confrontation. I mean, you just don’t do those kinds of things.

And the so-called Larry Rose finally showed up down here to identify those women and to tell them who they were, and he come out smiling. And I looked him right in the eye, and I said, ‘You really think it’s funny, don’t you?’

He said, ‘If it wasn’t so bizarre, it would be funny.’ And I said, ‘Larry, there’s nothing humorous about it. You lyin’ bastards, you lyin’ scumbuckets has caused some damage, some more heartache, to people wrongfully, and it’s got to stop.’

And he started into his thing, and I said, ‘Larry, why don’t you just shut up, because you every time you flap your lips open, you lie. You need to learn to shut your mouth.’

So anyway, I left the court that day, and there was a warrant for me that day. How come they didn’t arrest me? I was in the courthouse. Strange, isn’t it?

So we went home, and then after that little go-around, and on a Sunday afternoon, Larry Rose started harassing the Millers, harassing Lynn, turned his lights on her. Well, she was scared -- she was arrested once, wrongfully, and she had her little kids with her. So she run to Al’s house for protection.

She knew that Larry Rose was after her, and there is nothing beyond what he will do. We got a phone call that day from Al’s youngest son, Lance, who said, ‘My sister’s in trouble, we need help.’ Well right away -- Al wasn’t home, and I was home and Shad was home. So we bailed in her car and run down there to give assistance. And when somebody calls for help, I’ll go. Especially with this corruption as bad as it is. And I went because I figured if I could keep somebody from getting shot, I’m gonna go.

So there was a bunch of us went down there. And of course, then Larry, through the whole ordeal, Al Hamilton was arrested for intimidation, and Shad was for felony intimidation, because the police officers were scared of us. Well, they should have been.

Well, what they wanted Lynn for, they didn’t have to make the arrest. All they had to do was write a ticket out and send it to them in the mail. But he wanted to push it. Barney Fife -- he had ego problems. He wanted to put handcuffs on somebody and take them to jail. Make him important.

And from one thing then to another, Al Hamilton was arrested then April 7 for felony intimidation. He wasn’t home, he didn’t have a gun, and yet that is what he was convicted of.

[MBCI agents] They came when Joe Holland put out a message that it looked like there was gonna be another Waco, Texas, in Ravalli County, Montana. At that time we thought there was going to be, because of the wrongful law enforcement here, and the injustices going on in the court and everything. And some of us was refusing to go to court because there was no justice. We just figured that sooner or later there was going to be a shootout.

So the undercover agents, they posed as militia people who was coming and they was sympathetic with me and they were gonna come in support. As soon as they made the phone call, I knew there was something fishy.

Lynda: Nobody from the militia ever asked the kind of questions that they did.

CG: Nobody from the militia or the Patriot movement ever called me and made those kind of questions. Matter of fact, all the Patriots that ever called me and talked to me says, ‘We don’t want to fire the first shot. We don’t want to be the persons that kills somebody.’ Well, when these people called, they said, ‘Well what kind of guns should we bring?’ That was never asked by anybody else.

So I just played along with their game. I just said, ‘Well, bring whatever, we’ll shoot long or short. Whatever you’re comfortable with.’ Soon as I hung up the phone with that very first conversation, I knew then that they were suspicious.

We talked, we discussed it with the other people that was there. So when he came that afternoon -- see, I told him we had an empty barn they could stay in. So when I was discussing with these other people the possibility that they was undercover agents, I says, ‘Well, I’m gonna play their game with them.’ So when they came, I had them come up my folks’ driveway, which is across the field from my house, and I would meet them over there, face to face.

Well, another fellow went with me, and I did meet them face to face. And as soon as they got out of their vehicles -- they just didn’t have the mannerisms that a person who was coming in support of you would have. They just -- they were too phony.

Lynda: That one of them was a nervous wreck.

CG: Yeah, he was. Then I knew, after I seen them. So that’s when I sent them down to the fishing access. I wouldn’t let them stay in the barn, because I knew then that they were not copacetic. Probably the mistake I did, is I wanted them to play their hands one more time, and that was when had them up to the house the night we left. And I wished I had left them down at the fishing access. We’ve all said that since then.

See, the night of the 13th, they had what they called Montanans for Due Process, which was going to expose the corruption in the courts and the bar association, and this and that and the other. And I told them -- see, they tried to make that look like it was a militia meeting where they was going to arrest public officials and this and that. Well, these undercover agents, I had said, ‘Anytime a government official violates their oath of office and violates the Constitution where somebody’s been injured, what is that an act of?’ And he said, ‘Well, that’s an act of treason.’ And I said, ‘Well, if it’s an act of treason, shouldn’t they be taken before a court of law, and if convicted, what’s the penalty?’ And he says, ‘Well, death by hanging.’ And yet they posed it that I was going to arrest public officials, try them in a common-law court and hang them.

Well, I have always said that if they violate their oath of office, violate the Constitution -- and I’m stating that right now -- they need to be tried in a justifiable court of law, and if convicted, they need to have their sentence carried out. And I’m not going to change that.

So anyway, that is what the undercover agents, they put in their stinking report.

We never, ever discussed taking over the courthouse. We did discuss that any time to go into the courthouse to prove to the people that there was no justice in these courts, and there’s not, and prove to them how the public servants that was elected in office was really the ones violating the laws. And we did do that.

The night of the twelfth of April -- when they was gonna take her and I off the ranch for safety -- and we had reports that I was a dead man -- they was going to kill me. They were setting snipers on the hill above my house. And had people seen them.

I was going to stay behind to take the bullets. I told everybody -- I said, one more American must die. And they don’t have anything on me. I’ve been a good American, I’ve been a good patriot to this nation, I’ve been faithful to this country. And I said, it’s probably going to require one more of us die so that the rest of the people can really wake up and see what crooked, corrupt government is all about.

My oldest son and my wife says no. They refused to let me stay behind. My oldest son throwed me in the pickup. He says, ‘No, Dad, you know too much, you got too much knowledge of what’s going on, and no one here’s got the guts that you got to keep telling your story. You can come back. You’re gonna get out of here tonight, and now.’

In court this morning, Corn says that I was gone for six weeks. I was only gone for just a few nights.

We kept on the move. George don’t know it, but we was sitting down here right here in this valley watching most of the stuff that was going on. He said I was gone for six weeks. At any given time, I coulda plinked Corn, could have plugged him in the head, and he’d have been dead today. Patrick Henry would have.

It was in May.

I’ve had a lot of arguments with John, I’m sure he told you that. The very first thing that I told John, we’re going to get one thing straight -- you are not a licensed attorney, don’t give me that crap, that’s more of your fraud. I just said, you get home and you call me on the phone and tell me what your so-called license. And he called me on the phone, and he says, ‘It says right here, on the license.’ And I said, read it to me. And he says, ‘I’m certified to be licensed by the bar association of Montana.’ Doesn’t say anything about being licensed. You’re certified to be licensed. There’s no such thing as a licensed attorney in the United States. It ain’t there. That’s a misnomer.

So anyway, when John understood a little bit of what I was talking about, John still don’t agree with me on my so-called philosophies. The philosophy, I didn’t set it up. Smarter men than I was, Thomas Jefferson warned us what was going to happen if we didn’t do certain things, and Thomas Jefferson, as far as I’m concerned, was a far cry smarter than anything we’ve got in public office today. He was a far cry smarter than any lawyers I know of today. Because Thomas Jefferson lived under tyrants, and he knew what it was. John doesn’t have the foggiest idea what real tyrancy is all about.

You seem to be in better shape legally speaking than Al Hamilton is right now.

If I had it to do over, I wouldn’t have hired John.

What would you have done?

Stood out there and waited. It’s a matter of right and wrong. If there was any justice in the courts, as much as I know the law, I don’t need John to have a normal life. But they wouldn’t listen to me.

The courts is where law is supposed to be cited, quoted and used. How come they’re not letting LeRoy do it?

The judge isn’t recognizing his motions.

That’s not so. The judge recognizes it, he understands it. But he cannot let LeRoy have sovereignty. He has got to go with the government of this country to where people are under control by the government. It’s not a matter of right and wrong. It’s not a matter of justice or injustice. It’s a matter of control and money.

[Tape break]

I’ve watched this going on now for twenty-five, thirty years. Matter of fact, I said several times -- if the government don’t get back on the road of being public servants like they’re supposed to. And listen to the pleas of the people, there’s going to be a revolution in this country that’s going to kill a lot of folks.

The next three years are going to be very serious for this country.

So, if you had it to do over again, you’d still be making a stand out there?

Yeah.

Lynda: I wish we would have stayed. I wish we wouldn’t have had the boys involved.

CG: I wish could have got the boys out, in the wings somewhere, out away. She and I woulda stood there --

Shad: I don’t think I would have left. I would have stayed.

Do you still feel ready to give up your life?

If it comes, it gets any worse, some of us gonna have to.

I will be in pretty good company. John the Baptist was in prison. The Lord Christ himself was imprisoned. Paul was imprisoned. John the Baptist got his head cut off. Christ was hung on the cross. Pretty good company.

[Has to come up with $100,000 to save his ranch]

Everybody knows my problem. Everybody knows where I’m at. And everybody’s watched me build that place from the ground up.

The thing is, everybody out here that owns property is going to be in the same similar predicament within the next few years. Because this nation is bankrupt. The only thing they got -- they got rid of the gold and silver, the only thing they got left is the ground that it came out of.

Suppose the New World Order never happens. Say five years from now we’re in the same situation we’ve always been in. What do you do then?

If it isn’t here five years from now, maybe here in six. If it’s not here six years from now, it may be here seven. But I don’t think that this nation, in their regression that they’ve had governmentally, and the buildup of New World Order that this nation has seen in the last two years, it ain’t gonna go five years. Something serious is going to happen. This is 1996. Something serious, according to the Scripture in the last chapter, something serious, because of the things about disease, pestilence, plague, earthquakes, famine -- it’s already happening. Floods -- you name it, it’s happening all over the world. More than ever in history.

OK, something serious is going to happen in this world -- not just this nation, but in the world, within the next three years. Pre-millennium. There’s a tribulation that’s gotta happen. And it’s going to happen. I don’t know a time and a date. I can only learn a time and a season. We’re in the season.

Now, there’s a lot of preachers say that we won’t see any of the tribulations. Well, I disagree with them. Because the tribulation is divided into two parts, the first forty-two months, then the last forty-two months. At the end of the first forty-two months, three and a half years, there’s a man that takes on the number -- the number of the land, 666. When they start making that mark, they’ll put it into the right hand and the forehead of all the creatures of this land, the man of perdation that’s set himself up on the throne, that is the very beginning of the second of the half of the tribulations. I’m not gonna be here. I get called up.

I don’t put a time on it. I say this, this and this is going to happen. I think we’re going to see -- OK, for instance, one of the most serious things her and I heard the other night -- we have got the best wheat the world has ever gotten. Guess what we got in our wheat crop now. The most serious disease you can have in wheat. Arizona’s sealed, New Mexico is sealed off. It’s in California and parts of Texas sealed off right now because of that wheat.

I forget the disease, but when it gets into the wheat, it literally destroys the wheat. But anyway, we supply two-thirds of the world with wheat. Look around this table and this restaurant. How many things can we produce at this restaurant without wheat? Think about it. Not many. Not very many.

Now, that is the beginning of the tribulation. It’s the part of the tribulation that we’re going to see a little bit of. We’re already seeing it. Now, how long will it be before that wheat spreads all over this country. You know how it got here? It come across from Mexico in a truck? How do you like those apples, my friend?

I’m not some kind of a brainchild. I’m just being observant to what’s going on. This country is hell-bent for election right now and headed downhill.